January 21

Challenges With Reversing RA Symptoms In A Busy Family Environment

In this Episode of “What I Would Do If I Were You” you will learn:
– The 3 worst drugs for Rheumatoid Arthritis (and how Christina was on them all)
– Side effects of these drugs
– How her dietary changes dropped her CRP protein from 36mg/L to 19mg/L
– How her 3 sons whom she lives with eat poorly and how this makes it harder for her healing
– Ways to get the family on board
– Ways to educate your family to make positive changes
– How to drive down pain quickly, when you feel stuck
– McDougall vs Raw vs Paddison Program

Disclaimer -the information on this site is not medical advice. Before making any changes to your lifestyle, diet, exercise, drug or supplement routines you must first discuss the changes with a licensed professional. 

Clint: Today we’ve got another episode of “What I would do if I were you” and I’m here with Christina. Now, she’s in Germany and we had a mix-up on the time. She’s booked herself into nearly midnight there in her country. How are you, Christina?

Christina: I’m fine, Clint. Thanks a lot. This is great. Nice to meet you.

Clint: Yeah, you too. You too. So we can move straight into your story. I know it’s late there. Tell us, what have you been going through over the last few years? When were you diagnosed and what’s been the challenges?

Christina: Well, I was diagnosed in August 2015, that’s when it all started. And the trigger was I went to the gym and I did some exercises that day, and the next day my wrists and my hands were all infected. I couldn’t bend my fingers and my elbows hurt and first I thought it comes from exercising and I went to see the doctor. My own practitioner was on holiday, so I have seen replacement and he did a blood test and my markers were high. The infection markers…what do you call them?

Clint: C-reactive protein, yep.

Christina: Yeah, CRP markers were high and he gave me…we call it doxycycline.

Clint: Yeah, doxycycline. That’s exactly what my rheumatologist wanted to put me on, in fact, did put me on during the early stages of my treatment. Now, listeners know my story about this already but that’s the exact drug that I took for five years as a teenager and I believe contributed to the biggest part of my gut downfall. So did they wanna put you on the doxycycline straight away once you got diagnosed?

Christina: I got mixed up. It wasn’t called doxycycline because that’s a penicillin or some kind of antibiotic. I took that a few weeks later. When they tested my blood again, they found some Borrelia, so we thought I had Lyme disease at first. So I took that and ibuprofen, and of course, all that didn’t help. And when my doctor came back from holidays, he did another blood test and we found some Borrelia, so we thought I had Lyme disease.

So I went on the doxycycline for three weeks and it did not help with the pain and it got worse. I started getting pain in my left knee was all swelling up, and then he said, “Well, we’re gonna try some prednisone.”

Clint: Oh yeah?

Christina: So that’s what I took. I started with 20 milligrams, and of course, it got better. The swelling went down but I was never pain-free. I was never pain-free, it got even worse. They gave me some painkiller called tilidine, which is an opioid that they prescribe in Germany and Switzerland a lot. It’s for pain, major pain, I guess, and I took that. It makes you really drowsy and dizzy. So he told me to take it three times a day but then I couldn’t do nothing anymore.

Clint: Right. Okay, so you were on the worst possible combo of drugs. You were actually on the three drugs that I have in my free auto email sequence training that explains the three drugs that are most detrimental to the gut: antibiotics, non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, and prednisone. So these are the three drugs that work most against the gut healing. So you were on all three of them, so no wonder you weren’t doing too good.

Christina: And I told him that some of the antibiotics don’t even work with me anymore because I had so much of them during the course of my life. When I was little, I used to get tonsillitis all the time and then got treated with antibiotics or penicillin. And later on in my 20s, I started to get sinus infections a lot. So all the way up into my 30s, I was constantly taking antibiotics.

Clint: There you go.

Christina: And I would get yeast infections from it, and bladder infections, and I always had trouble with my stomachs also. And then, later on, I started to get…I couldn’t bend my toes but it always went away again, where would get a swollen-up finger and my knuckle would swell up but it would go away again. So I didn’t think about it. I didn’t think it would be rheumatoid arthritis. I had never heard of it before.

Now I can make the connection, you know. Now I can make the connection. I would get rashes on my elbows, on both elbows, and on my shoulders and I noticed that certain foods would cause allergies, and when I would leave foods that contain gluten out of my meal plan, the rashes would go away and things like that. I’m putting one puzzle piece next to another. But in December 2015, I still didn’t have an appointment for the rheumatologist. I had to wait two months to get an appointment, which is common, I guess.

Clint: That’s normal around the world.

Christina: So I went to see him in January 2016, and my CPR was 36 then and he told me I would have to take methotrexate. So he said it was a very severe case and we have to deal with that with the severe medicine or whatever. He said I had to take that, and at one point in December, I was up to 60 milligrams prednisone and 60 milligram…

Clint: Sixty, I think that’s close to the record. I think I know of another person who was doing 60 milligrams a day, but I mean, that’s not gonna do many…

Christina: That’s ridiculous.

Clint: Yeah, that’s ridiculous

Christina: I don’t know if you can see this. This is what my hand looked like in January. I could not bend my fingers or open them. It’d take me two hours to get dressed in the morning, me and my little son. I could not walk up the stairs. This was my knee.

Clint: Yup, yup. Well, yup, brings back memories.

Christina: It was all blown up, my left knee, and at some point, I could not even bend my knees to sit on the toilet in the morning or open my jaws. I would have it everywhere. I could not open my mouth to bite or have a piece of banana. I used pliers to open up the bottle, any bottle. I’m still on 10 milligrams of prednisone right now and tilidine. I couldn’t take the methotrexate because I would get a real bad cough.

I didn’t have any other side effects but I didn’t have any benefit from it either. I would just get such a bad cough from it that I couldn’t sleep at night and they had to take me off of it. And that’s when I really started getting into looking up what I can do alternatively, how I can change my diet, and I was already on my way to a vegan diet but I was always cheating here and then.

Clint: Yeah.

Christina: But of course then I met all these people. Dr. McDougall on YouTube. I got his book, “The High Carb…” We call it, “The High Carb Diet” here. It’s called, “The Starch Solution,” in the States. I got Dr. Goldner’s book, “Goodbye Lupus.” I got Dr. Goldhamer, Dr. Lisle’s book…

Clint: Good.

Christina: …”The Health‑Promoting Cookbook,” and so on. My markers are down to 19 now but I’m still not…

Clint: Okay, just for before and after kind of stats. You said originally your C-reactive protein in January, when the doctor said, “We need to treat you aggressively,” was around 35 milligrams [inaudible 00:08:42] or something?

Christina: Yeah, 36.

Clint: Thirty-six, yeah, and then now you’re down around 19?

Christina: 19.1.

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Clint: Okay. So we’re talking about…that was now…we’re in December. So it’s been nearly 12 months since you saw the doctor, okay. All right, and so how can I help today? How can I make the best use of the next little bit of time?

Christina: Yeah, you see, my problem is I live in a household with three sons that live on the standard Western diet.

Clint: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And I have all these foods around me, bad foods, and I keep stepping into this pleasure trap. Dr. Lisle calls it “the pleasure trap.” And I tell you, Clint, I don’t have just one trap. My house is mined and I am fighting this war against all these traps. And I have to cook these foods and it’s really hard for me just not to take a bite here and there and think, “Oh well, just a little bite can’t hurt.” And then I remember Dr. Klaper said once, “Your body never ever doesn’t look. If you take the bite, it’s in there, and you’re going to take the consequences.”

Clint: Yeah, yeah your body. Yeah, that’s right. It’s not like it can’t go through the system.

Christina: Yeah, it’s not like, “Well, I didn’t see that one coming.”

Clint: Okay, so let me just get your instructions for me correct. You want to know a little bit more how to avoid eating the wrong foods so that you can stay on track in a household where you do the food prep for three other men, and all of them eat in a way that isn’t what I believe is the right way. Okay, is there anything else? Because I can tend to get on a bit of a rant once I start. So, do you wanna give me another requirement here?

Christina: I’ve also been back-and-forth with the, “What should I do? Should I follow your program? Should have followed Dr. McDougall’s program? He has more of the elimination diet where everything is cooked, with the rice and even the fruits are cooked. And then I have the, “80/10/10 All Raw Food,” book here. So I’m kind of confused because I keep slipping back and forth.

Clint: Okay, good. These are good questions.

Christina: Yeah, it’s like it’s this little voice inside of my head telling me after two days of doing this, “Maybe I should try this or maybe I should try that,” and I can’t just stick to one thing, and with all the bad foods around me, it’s even worse. I’m trying to compensate for it, I guess. Instead of…

Clint: You’re doing great. Look, first of all, you’re doing absolutely wonderful. If you’re surrounded by other foods, it makes it so much more difficult to make progress. But just before we get into all that, let me just say that what you’ve done, up against it, with some of those photos that you showed me, your knee looked like mine did at some of the worst days I ever had. Your hand looked worse than my hand ever looked, and even with the hand that…both hands, my fingers, wrist, and all that stuff was just so uncomfortable and so horrible. It couldn’t have been…

Christina: Yeah. I forgot to mention that I have lost over 70 pounds in the last two years, changing my diet. That also helps with the strain on the joints and everything.

Clint: Yeah, that will help a lot. That only becomes problematic if you don’t wanna lose any weight and then you continue to lose weight but I’ve addressed that in other podcasts and a new video about that’s in new Advanced Package materials that you have. Okay, so I’ve made some notes here. Talk about the pleasure trap and how to work around the challenges around you with food, my program versus Dr. McDougall’s, all of our programs versus going raw vegan.

Christina: Yeah.

Clint: And flipping around, going from one style of eating to the next. If I answer these questions, are you gonna feel that…

Christina: Because I can see people on all these different approaches made progress and got better. So I was thinking to myself there’s got to be one common thing that all these approaches have that helps the sick people. And that’s probably what we don’t eat anymore instead of sometimes what we do eat that matters. I don’t know.

Clint: Well, that’s right. Well, it’s a combination of both. Let me answer it in a way that my brain works, which is to try and eliminate the simpler things first and then move on to the longer answer so that I can kind of cue them in a way that makes sense to me. Let’s, first of all, I guess, talk about raw foods because that’s something that I haven’t mentioned almost since the first couple of episodes of this whole series, the podcast that I’ve put together.

In the first few episodes of this podcast, right back at the start, I talked about raw foods because we had Rowena Jayne, who’s a raw food author and chef and also a Bikram yoga champion. And so she was our first guest on the very first episodes.

Now, I did raw foods for eight months. I believe that raw foods have a tremendous pain reduction capacity but they come with the massive downside of being extremely challenging and I don’t think sustainable. I just don’t think that it’s sustainable for a year upon year and to be the sort of eating routine that is acceptable in the world that we live in. I just find it too challenging. So it was necessary for me because I couldn’t eat any cooked food at all. So I couldn’t find a platform of foods that would enable me to have low enough pain that I felt that I was improving even on the medications that I was on. So that’s on that maximum dose of methotrexate.

So, I think that introducing more raw foods and potentially going completely raw for a period of time is something that people can consider in utter desperation if they can’t increase their medications because their medications are just too toxic for their body and they’re rejecting them. They haven’t got other medication alternatives. They’ve been following the Paddison Program for a while and their gut is just so messed up. They can’t handle even the most basic of the cooked foods. In that scenario, and there’s another “if,” and if they have not a chronic underweight condition, then potentially look at raw foods. I mean, I consider going completely raw vegan to be one of the last dietary measures that one could take. It’s the most challenging, all right?

Christina: Right, okay.

Clint: Let me put it this way. If I had at my fingertips every single option…like at some point in the future we’re gonna have a health retreat where people can come and they can sample all of the ways to reduce pain right in front of them and it’s gonna be unbelievable, all right?

Christina: Right.

Clint: But until that day occurs, and if someone has around them an option of doing Bikram yoga every day rather than going from Paddison or McDougal into raw, I would suggest that. Like I would suggest go to Bikram every day and you won’t need to go fully raw. For eight months, I was fully raw and Bikram every day.

Christina: Wow.

Clint: I mean, you got it? Yeah, I had to go to the utmost extent of humanity to try and get my pain under control. I mean this was…yeah. I mean it’s easy to forget now, because it’s been years since I was in that situation, just how bad I had it. I mean it was intense. So that’s my comments on raw, all right?

Christina: Okay.

Clint: Now, with regards to McDougall versus my program, off the top of my head I can’t remember, but there are around about nine differences just in the two elimination processes itself. So when I spoke to Dr. Lisle…you mentioned him, he wrote, “The Pleasure Trap,” he was on a podcast recently…

Christina: Right, and that was it to find out about the pleasure trap and not beating yourself up all the time because now I know this is a biological thing. We’re supposed to be wanting to eat these foods and not because I’m weak or something.

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Clint: Well, that’s right and just to add to that, one of the doctors that you mentioned before, and I forget which one, I think it was Dr. Klaper, said that we do have an instinct as a mammal to seek out foods that are higher in fat. Because, up until the last probably couple of hundred years of our entire existence, food was not available to us all year round in an unlimited amount and unlimited variety.

And so, as an evolving species, for the 99.999% of our previous history, we would have been prioritizing foods that were higher in fat because of their more calorie density and we knew that, if we could find some high-fat foods, that we were, therefore, going to sustain our energy for longer. And that doesn’t mean that I believe that we, therefore, tried to, you know, eat flesh. I just mean that if we could find nuts and seeds and avocados and olives and things like, that we can crave those in our diet. There’s no doubt about it.

And these days, it’s hard to tell what we crave because our microbiome is so messed up. We’re getting signals about things that aren’t even natural for us like artificial flavorings and…I mean it’s a mess, right? But I think it’s normal for us to wanna crave some fat, but do we need to get that fat via the wrong foods for us? No, because we’re too intelligent and we have choices these days to be able to find alternatives to both support us and satiate us.

So, getting back to McDougall versus my approach, so one of the things that I’ve emphasized so much in my program is leafy greens. And that’s one area that I strongly believe make such a massive difference. And the more greens that you eat, the better you will feel. The only case where this needs to be modified is if someone has gastritis or someone has a problem whereby they don’t digest cellulose very well, but I don’t think that applies to you. I would say, in your case, just eat as much leafy greens and especially baby spinach as you can. Now our program…

Christina: Yeah, that’s alright.

Clint: Sorry?

Christina: But with celery and cucumber juice, that’s a big…what do you call it?

Clint: Part of your daily…

Christina: It doesn’t taste too good but I look at it as medicine, so I can drink it easier. I do work with a lot of herbal teas because I grew up with that and we just grew up with that in my family. And here in Germany, it’s more common, I guess, than in other countries to work with herbs. So I have a few different varieties I use. For example, thistle tea, which has antiviral properties and has 20 times more antioxidants power than fresh-pressed lemon juice. Or nettle tea, which contains a total of 17 essential vitamins and minerals, like vitamin A, C, E, and K, and it also has fatty acids like lycopene and several other beneficial phytochemicals.

I also use oregano. This is a very good herb to use, and I make teas out of these. So, instead of juicing a lot, I just compensate it with teas because oregano contains phenols and carvacrol, it’s called? It is a powerful antibiotic, and it’s also anti-inflammatory, and meadowsweet is also very anti-inflammatory.

Clint: So I wouldn’t drink those personally because…I spoke to Dr. Klaper about this when he was in Sydney and I know they’re close to your heart and that they’re comforting and soothing. But so Dr. Klaper points out that all these various herbs have ways in which they protect themselves from the environment, from being eaten, and from being attacked by other microbes and so forth.

And one is that, as you say, that antimicrobial effect and he says that if you’re strictly trying to keep a neutral or supportive environment for your microbiome, these things can, in some cases, irritate that delicate environment that we’re trying to nurture in there. You notice that both McDougall and myself, we don’t have those teas in our program.

So you can go ahead and drink but just don’t think of them as things that have been scientifically studied as being beneficial. Like, think of them as something that you enjoy doing, not as therapeutic agents. That’s how I would view that. I mean, we’re on this call because I’m telling you what I would do.

Christina: Right.

Clint: I wouldn’t do…I personally, I wouldn’t do the teas. I would increase my pseudograin intake. I would focus on increasing potassium for RA relief. I would stick to one thing and eat it every day for several days so that you see a predictability in your pain levels so that you can monitor how things are going and you get some consistency.

You wanna get into the healing groove, right? That means that each day you feel the same or a tiny bit better than the day before. Even if it’s just week-to-week, you feel just a touch better, you’re in the healing groove because you’re not getting these so-called flares or what I call reactions. You’re not reacting to things because you’ve protected your gut from the multitude of negative impacts that it could have from your food environment and all sorts of stuff.

And then what I would do is I would look at ways to increase my exercise, and I would look to try and sweat every day for a period of time through exercise. And you’ve heard that before, so that’s nothing new from me. And just from a time point of view, I now want to go across and talk about, you know, the situation with having all these foods around the house.

So, first of all, if I was in your shoes and I had to cook for a bunch of guys who wanted to eat their meat and eggs and bacon and all that sort of stuff, I would…like they need education. This isn’t a case of like trying to pamper their superior needs. They’re killing themselves.

So I would speak to them and educate them and show them, “This isn’t food that’s supportive for you. The reason that I eat the way that I do is because I’m trying to reverse a chronic disease that is going to be something that takes all my willpower and all my energy and is harder than climbing Mount Everest.”

They’re sitting around eating this ridiculous food and thinking that it’s normal and thinking that it’s healthful creating [SP]. And so I would try and change the way that you prepare their foods, not try and be tempted to eat their foods. I mean, I can’t stand the way that a piece of flesh looks on a plate. I grew up on a farm, I’ve seen how these animals are killed and the blood that runs out of their body and their throats when they’re slit and the agony that these animals go through when the bullet goes into their head and their eyes pop out of their face. I mean, this isn’t pleasure. This is disgusting, you know?

Christina: We just walked by one of those slaughtered pigs just last week, with all the children from elementary school looking at it. Just imagine.

Clint: Well, you know, these things do happen and I think that’s important. If someone can get near an abattoir, it will change their life. The smell of an abattoir, that disgusting mix of over-attempt to try and sanitize the place with the smell of old dead animal. I mean, it is something else. I mean, you gotta experience that. I mean, my dad took me there once and I was trying to be a tough farmer, okay? It’s like my dad bought me a gun when I was 13 years old. He bought me a gun. It was my birthday present, okay?

Christina: Wow.

Clint: Yeah, and so put yourself in those shoes. I’m a 13-year-old boy. I’ve just gotten a gun, and then, we’re taking animals here and there as part about livelihood. Things have changed a lot, but look, this is how things were. My dad said we’re going to the abattoir because he had to meet someone there. I don’t even recall why we were going there. We had nothing to do with the place. But anyway, dad knew someone he was meeting there or something.

And upon approach, the smell hit me and I was trying to be tough, but I mean, I’m going like that. I mean I couldn’t…I had my nose in my shirt the whole time and I didn’t go into the place. I couldn’t stand it, the smell. And so yeah, that’ll live with me for a long time. And yeah. So anyway, we got a little sidetracked there, but I would work on these guys. I mean, did you say one of them is your son?

Christina: All three of them.

Clint: All three of them, okay. Okay, well…

Christina: Well, two of them are grown up or grown-ups already and one is eight years old. And he also eats like that and I told him so many times before. And they see how I struggle and I keep talking to them. I studied nutrition for seven semesters at university. I can tell him so many things but I guess as long as they are not sick, they think they’re invincible.

Clint: Yeah, we all do. We all do.

Christina: So they’re eating, they’re young, and they think, “Nothing can harm me.” In 2014, my husband died of leukemia, leaving me behind with a five-year-old, and he ate meat, and he smoked, and drank till the end. He did not change, not even when he was sick. And I always tell them, “I can only tell you what I know, and I can show you by what I do how you can do it, but I cannot preach to you and I cannot force you to live a healthier life.” But while I’m in the midst of all of this, I have to watch out for myself that I’m not stepping into these traps, you know? Oh, here a little French fry here, or a little chip there, and my hands swell up again, and it’s hard.

Clint: It’s really hard. God, I understand the situation that you have. So I would call a family meeting and I would sit down with your three lovely sons and all who, by the way, don’t really…you know, it’s just a case of not understanding the full picture. And I would spend an hour with them. And I would say, “Look, this is a situation. This is what’s wrong with me. This is how I react to these foods and this is what I need. This is how I need to eat to be able to minimize my joint pain and not be on terrible drugs that are gonna give worse side effects.”

Or to minimize those drugs, right? Let’s not attack on drugs. We just wanna try and be as healthy as we can. That’s what we’re trying to achieve, and by doing so, we then may not require many medications. And then I would explain to your boys that all of the science supports…I’ll tell you what I would do. I would I would have them watch some of Dr. Greger’s presentations, you know? Michael Greger. I would get them to watch like, “The leading causes of death.”

You can say, “Look, guys, your dad went through a lot of his suffering and it’s likely that the cause of his condition was aggravated by his lifestyle. And I want you to watch this video. This is all scientific stuff. This is educational stuff and, one hour of family time this week, we’re gonna watch this together, okay?”

And then, after they’ve seen that, I would explain to them that what you would like to do, as a proposal for your boys, is to suggest that one night a week you cook in a way that you feel would be health-promoting for them. And you can choose one of Melissa’s recipes that you have, and pick one that’s, like, really delicious and everyone always loves.

I mean you could do something like bean burritos, right? It doesn’t have to be even difficult. It could be simple, right? And make some bean burritos and just really have them enjoy a night of sitting around and eating foods that you feel will support them. And then on that one night, really heap praise on them that they’re doing what mom wanted and it’s so nice and it makes you so happy and thank them.

And then maybe in a week or two after that, make it two nights a week, and then after a while, make it three nights a week. And when they notice that not only do they not feel worse to eat healthy food but maybe they slept better that night or they have a little bit more energy the next day or whatever, and that they’re still strong and they’re still the human being that they were the day before, then maybe over a period of 6 to 12 months, maybe your household could be eating a lot healthier than it is today. And in parallel to that, in parallel, you need to stick to as strict or as basic plan as you need for now for your body to continue to stay in a low-inflammation state. That’s what I would do.

Christina: Start with repetition of the same simple foods and then graduate from there up.

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Clint: Well, I did that episode with the nutritionist, and although you haven’t seen that yet, it will be released by the time this is released. And it goes through even the most basic format of our plan and it meets every vitamin and mineral requirement. And so you’re not missing out on anything. In fact, there’s no greater way of eating for a human being in terms of eating all your nutritional requirements. It’s phenomenal. And that’s a basic sort of format of our plan. So you can be reassured with that and take a B12 and exercise, and look, it just takes time. It took years. It took me years.

Christina: Yeah, it takes time. I do exercise. I started aikido before it hit me and I thought I had to quit. And I love this sport, I really do. So now I just make myself go there and sometimes I would just sit there and watch. I just participate in the warm-ups and I do some techniques I can do and I got my inflammation levels down to 19. So I could…actually I made my yellow belt in July.

Clint: That’s awesome.

Christina: And I go to the gym twice a week just to get my joints moving. I do that too and…

Clint: Excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent.

Christina: I need to move, without move…if I don’t move, you can forget it. It’s so important to move.

Clint: Everyone needs to listen to you. If you don’t move, you can forget it, okay? Anyone who’s listening, watching right now, take a break. Take a break. And you know, I talk about these retreats we’re gonna do one day. This will be the longest that we ever sit down and go over any kind of educational content because we got to get up, get moving. Get up, get moving.

The joints are only in your body because they’re there to move. If they weren’t a joint…if it wasn’t meant to move, it would be a straight bone. That thing has to move and that’s how it gets nutrients. So we’ve got to move, move, move, move, move. And whatever that means for people, if it means someone’s at work, potentially look at getting a standing desk and then sit down, then stand up, sit down or just drink lots of water and take loo breaks all the time. Go to the bathroom because you need to go, because you’re always drinking water. Whatever little tricks you need to do to keep the body moving, we got to keep the body moving.

Christina: Yep, that’s true. And for Christmas Eve, we’re gonna have bean burritos.

Clint: There you go. High five on that one. Bean burritos, that’s great. Yeah, right now, yeah, of course, it’s Christmas coming up, and within our community forum, we were all talking about what to do for Christmas and bean burritos would be just lovely. Bean burritos, there you go.

Christina: Yes. We were just talking about that, “What are we going to have for Christmas Eve?” Now I know.

Clint: That’s fabulous. That’s fabulous and of course, if you need to like not break but bend the rules a little bit on Christmas and eat in a much more diverse way, you know that you can just reset back to the baseline meals again the next day or two, and yet you’re not going to do yourself any harm. You’re just having a day where you’re just going to experience probably a little bit more pain but you know how to get rid of that pain again, so the fear is gone. Have a nice Christmas Day. Don’t break the rules. Just bend them a little and you’ll have a wonderful day with the boys.

Christina: Yeah, I will.

Clint: All right, well, I hope this has been helpful, Christina, and I’m really proud of you, all that you doing. And it’s so challenging. You’re on your own, you’ve got three boys to look after. Aw, come on, you know, you deserve a medal.

Christina: It’s hard and the community around me isn’t supportive. I mean, they’re all meat eaters. Wherever I go, there is not one vegan around.

Clint: Okay, all right. Let me sort that out. So I’ll give you a month. You can come and hang with us for a month in our support forum and you’ll be able to…

Christina: I will.

Clint: Yeah, there go. So come join us for a month and you can join our Christmas discussions and a whole bunch of other stuff. And I’m sure in that month you’ll get a really…appreciation for all of the finer detail of how to move forward in 2017.

Christina: Cool.

Clint: Okay, we’ll set that up for you. Thanks so much, Christina, and I really hope you will…

Christina: Thank you.

Clint: You better get to bed, right? It’s midnight.

Christina: Oh yeah. It’s 12:31 in the morning.

Clint: All right. All right. Okay.

Christina: I’m getting up in about five hours.

Clint: All right. Well, let’s wrap it up so you can get a little sleep.

Christina: It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Clint: Oh, thank you.

Christina: Goodbye.

Clint: Thank you. Bye-bye.


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