We discuss how:
– After being diagnosed Lupus Penina was on medication and feeling extreme pain
– She was put on Sulfasalazine and after a few months started having itchy skin as a side effect
– Looking at the other side effects she would have encountered down the road, she decided to try different approaches
– While searching information through the internet she found Clint’s TED Talk and found great inspiration in it
– After a couple of hesitations she drastically changed her diet to the Paddison Program for Rheumatoid Arthritis and her pain was immediately reduced
– Her physician supported her in the process, because other patients did the same before with success
– She’s now off Sulfasalazine and pain-free
Clint: Super pumped to have a very vibrant and excited guest on our show today. Her name is Penina. She’s all the way from Israel and a place I’ve never been. But I look forward to going. I’ve got a couple of friends there and now Penina as a friend amongst others and she has got an incredible story to share with her radical turnaround of her lupus/rheumatoid arthritis depending on which specialist you ask and she’s about to share it all with us. How are you Penina?
Penina: I am fantastic, and I am so excited to be here and to share with everybody how your program and the knowledge that you give over has just made such a huge difference in my life you’ve given my life back to me really.
Clint: Well that is so wonderful to hear. You know we go through so much and the whole experience for all of us is so painful. So if each of us can get something out of what we’ve been through, then it makes at least part of it worth it. And the more people we can help, and the more that we can benefit by assisting others then it makes more and more of it worth it if that makes sense. So I’ve actually held you back from telling me how much you know you’ve improved and what’s happened. So I don’t know what you’re about to say but I’ve pumped that up. So let’s hear a snapshot of what we’re in for the next half an hour or so.
Penina: Well I was on medication, and I was in a tremendous amount of pain, and I was trying to figure out what to do because I didn’t want to go to the next level of medications which had all of these scary side effects. And then well I’ll tell everybody about how I discovered your program but it turned my life around. Like I said I am now completely off of medication, and I thought that I had to give up my dreams and my career. And now I’m back into it, and I’m living life not just surviving and it’s amazing.
Clint: Wow, okay fantastic! Now let’s walk through it then chronologically. I’d like to first of all, if it is the start of this story you mentioned just before we started recording you were on a Keto diet. Now I don’t know if that’s before it all went wrong. But you know let’s start from the start and work that into. Because there’s controversy out there people are confused and they’re ending up eating these high fat Keto Paleo style diets and ultimately it’s going to fail and cause problems for them way beyond just rheumatoid arthritis but other health issues. So I’d like you to start from when the symptoms began and incorporate that if it’s around the same time.
Penina: Oh yeah definitely. I had actually had weight problems when I was younger and that really I don’t think is really relevant to what we’re talking about. But I had started to gain some weight back after a massive weight loss and so I tried to figure out what I could do and that’s when I went on this Keto diet and it was successful for weight loss. You know as far as that goes, it did what it promised to do and after being the Keto diet for about 2 years, I had a very stressful time in my life. We were moving and changing jobs and things like that. And after the move my hands were hurting and I have some osteoarthritis, so I was like okay maybe I just over used my hands, and I went a couple of weeks without doing anything and the pain wasn’t going away. And then all of a sudden, I began to have pain in my shoulder, and pain and my elbow, and muscular pain. And again, having had the osteoarthritis, I was like Okay maybe I’ve just done something but then I start to get like other weird symptoms like a strange rash, actually several and I started to get really really tired. And once that happened I was like okay wait a minute, any one of these symptoms is you know explainable on its own, but when I put all of it together there’s got to be something else going on here. And that’s when I went to my doctor and she said you know definitely sounds rheumatological. Let’s do some other blood tests that we don’t normally do. And I came back positive for rheumatoid arthritis and it looks like Lupus. I had the ANA which is the big test that they do for lupus and that’s when she sent me to the rheumatologist.
Clint: Okay. Now what for even a reminder for myself and for others who are unfamiliar with lupus. Can you just describe for us what the symptoms of lupus feel like in the body compared to the rheumatoid arthritis that we constantly talk about or familiar with?
Penina: So for me and this is something that I have to be clear on, we really started to work on this fairly early compared to a lot of people and my symptoms were also very mild compared to a lot of people who have lupus. A lot of people are very very ill and I was not very very ill but I was extremely fatigued to the point where I had to nap every few hours. Many people who get lupus get a rash on their face which I did not get, but I got these strange rashes on my arms, my legs. And on top of that, I had the what you would normally associate the joint pain and inflammatory kind of situation and on top of that though, I also had these muscular aches that you would more likely associate like with fibromyalgia. So yeah. And to be honest with you at this point I’m like, I’ve been feeling so good now for a while that I have to like really think back to what kinds of problems that I was also having some chest pain, I was having heart issues. Yeah.
Clint: This is why I guess the specialist wasn’t sure if it was you know rheumatoid or Lupus. You had as you said the blood marker that suggested maybe lupus as well. But at this point you were just thinking whatever the pain is. I just want to get rid of it. Right? That’s what I say.
Clint: When people spend too long trying to work out their diagnosis. I get emails and people say hey, you know I’m not sure if it’s this or this, is your program appropriate. Coz it’s like 100 different sorts of auto immune inflammatory conditions with all these weird and wonderful names. And ultimately I say this, if you’ve been shot with an arrow, do you stand there and analyze what sort of arrow is in my body? Is it a sharp arrow, or long Arrow? Is it a fluffy arrow or a colorful arrow? You don’t think that. You think, get the bloody thing out of my body as quickly as possible. Okay?
Clint: We just want to fix the thing. Okay so pulling out the arrow is my answer and I use that metaphor. So we want to pull out the arrow. So you’ve gone to the specialists, you’ve got these diagnoses and what happened next?
Penina: Right so I didn’t want to, you know like you said I didn’t care what he called it. I just wanted a cure. And so fortunately for me whether you’re talking about psoriatic arthritis or rheumatoid arthritis or lupus the first few protocols are exactly the same. So they put me on sulfasalazine which is a very common bottom rank medication for these rheumatoidlogical issues. And he told me it might take you know a couple of months for me to see results. So I took the medication faithfully and I ended up actually having a side effect of really really itchy skin. My back was so itchy I started like tearing at my skin. And that was the only noticeable side effect was this itchiness that I had.
Penina: Anyway I took it and after sa couple months I started to feel a little relief. I was also taking Silcox which I think is called Celebrex in the United States. And I was taking that every day and he said to me like I don’t think you should take it every day, and I was like well the other medication isn’t doing enough. And even with taking it every day I’m just barely surviving. So I’m on a couple of Facebook groups and I started doing some research in the next levels of medication already have scary side effects. I was looking at them and people were talking about having to go to the eye doctor cause you might go blind, and having to have them check on your liver, and having them keep a monitor on your heart. And I was like I don’t want to do this, that scares me. I’m actually older than I look, I’m 50 years old, I am otherwise healthy. I mean I know I have a l to of life to live you know I didn’t want to go through these things, and it just so happened that I came across. By the way I don’t believe in coincidences ever. It just so happened that I came across this TED talk on YouTube with this really adorable guy, with his cute Australian accent, who was talking about how he had cured his rheumatoid arthritis. But really I saw it, and I thought well let’s see what he has to say. I love TED talks you know, I think everybody does.
Penina: And I was totally captured by what you had to say about how you had taken your disease into your own hands. You found a way to cure it or put it into remission. And not only that but that you were helping lots of people do it to. And so I thought okay well, I’m very much in to let’s research this, let’s look at the connection you had mentioned certain things so I went even further and looked at the connection between gut health and auto immune diseases and stuff like that. And I said this guy is onto something. And so I went ahead and subscribed to your program and I started reading what was involved. And I’m reading and I’m starting to like “why did I just pay this money because there is no way on earth I can do this”. I cannot drink only green juice for two days. Are you kidding me? And I was like just I can’t, I can’t. I love food too much. I can’t do this. But I decided to at least read to the end of the book because that’s the kind of person I am. And towards the end of the book, I read this line where you say you can do this backwards. And I believe if I recall correctly you said you know it’ll take a longer a much longer time to see results. You may not see the same level of results, but you can start with eliminating the least amount of things. And so I said well it’s worth a shot. And so at my observation, am I allowed to mention what I saw on the program like the things you eliminate?
Clint: Yes of course. But before you do. We have covered all the content of my book and more in our podcast over the years. There’s nothing in the book that people can’t hear for free if they have like 50 hours and just listen to everything that’s all there and that’s what I say to people. I said look if you’ve got no money you must have some time, because if you if you’re not working so you can’t afford to spend that hundred bucks. Then you’ve got lots of time. So get your Internet connection at the library for free, and just listen and learn everything. Take notes and you’ll be good.
Clint: Now just wanted to clarify, for people who are wondering what’s this may might have overlooked or forgotten that I have this page at the end of the book that says doing the program in reverse. And what it means is that if someone has a doctor, who is highly skeptical or just refuses to approve a parallel dietary change to medications that looks a little bit difficult for their patient. Or if someone is elderly, frail, underweight, all these different reasons that are covered. Then maybe do it in reverse. And as you’ve pointed out so eloquently it’s a compromise for results, because I believe that to get maximum results we have to take a really narrow path through the mountain. But at least it gets out, the dairy, the meat, the oils. And once we eliminate those most people will feel probably 50% better within 2 weeks, and that’s going to still inspire the heck out of a lot of people to stick with it and encourage their family to support them. And eventually they might say you know what, if I can do that, what’ll happen if I do the program from the start? That would be unbelievable. And you’ve done that and that’s awesome, because we haven’t had a guest on who’s done this. I’m curious now to see what happens.
Penina: Okay. So what I gathered from that first reading, was no animal proteins and when I was on Keto I was really, I was living on dairy and eggs. That was like, because I tend to lean in the vegetarian direction anyway. I even got my own chickens at some point, because I was eating like 6, 8, 10 eggs. And so no animal proteins was what I got from reading it the first time, no gluten grains, no coffee or caffeine, and no artificial sweeteners. Those were the things that just jumped out at me so that’s where I started. The first week I tackled in some ways the easiest but in other ways the hardest. I went off the artificial sweeteners and the coffee and the caffeine. That was what they did the first couple of weeks, just because like you know I’m not a jump into it and do it all at once kind of person. So that’s what I did the first week or two weeks actually, and then I went to the no animal proteins. And then it’s interesting because I went to the no gluten grains except that since coming off of the Keto which was totally gluten free, and clearly didn’t do it for me because I got sick while I was doing it.
Penina: So I went back to doing it, I had cheated in between, I had started eating gluten again, and then when I went to your program. So I started to not eat the gluten but I wasn’t doing it consistently. I wasn’t like you know. So it took about 5 months for me to see results, but when I saw the results was when I was very strict about the animal proteins, very strict about the no gluten grains. For me, and I’m sure you’ve mentioned this, everybody is different and so would affects one person is obviously going to be different than what worked for me. But it was the combination of the no artificial sweeteners I believe because I think that that was part of what was really ruining my stomach. And no animal proteins, and no gluten grains. Together those things I think, you know I needed that combination, and then 5 months after I started this after I decided to really be strict on what I was doing. I woke up one day and I was like, my elbow doesn’t hurt, wait a minute. my shoulder doesn’t hurt. And I couldn’t believe that all of that additional pain that I had been suffering for 2 1/2 years at that point was gone, and the only pain that I had residual was the osteo which is damage it’s not an inflammatory state and I was just amazed.
Penina: Now something I didn’t mention, was I went to my doctor after I decided to try to do this. And I said to her, fortunately I’m very very fortunate to have a great personal physician and I said to her I want to try a different approach to dealing with this. I’d like to do and I just called it gluten free vegan diet. And you said to me, I was prepared for her to give me an argument and she said I support you 100 %. I have seen it works in my own patients. I had a patient who had psoriasis, very bad psoriasis. He went on a gluten free vegan diet, and he cured the psoriasis. So she said I support you 100%. She said it’s a hard sell, she said I can’t recommend it to everybody because nobody wants to be told that this is the way to heal their body. But she supported me 100%, and I am so glad that she did because Look at the results.
Clint: That is awesome. Yeah that is just fantastic. You know how rare it is to hear that. I actually was as you were chatting, it popped back into my mind that Israel has one of the highest uptakes of veganism of any country in the world and I don’t know the statistics.
Clint: 10%, right. Yeah.
Penina: We are actually leading the world per capita in veganism.
Clint: By a mile.
Penina: I went to a restaurant yesterday in Jerusalem that is vegan and has a several options on the menu for gluten free, and I was in heaven. It’s really pretty cool.
Clint: Yeah that is fantastic. I learned that from Gary Yourofsky, who did a lot of work in Israel. Huge animal advocate, really rebellious type of person. Who would tie himself to two kind of trees, and free animals from cages that were locked up. And all sorts of things that are you know trouble making but good for getting publicity. And I think that he he played somewhat of a role because of he had a lot of exposure in Israel and a lot of support. I spent some time there I believe I’m speaking a like just off the top my head but it was his one of his talks that first drew my attention to the amount of veganism in Israel. And also my friend, I got a really close friend Zoe who I used to share a townhouse with in Sydney before Melissa my wife came into the scene. And her and Melissa and I have been friends for many years and her sister lives in Israel so she visits there from the UK and from France regularly. So we’re always talking about veganism in Israel so it’s fabulous, I think it’s great.
Clint: And so you’ve done all that, have you returned to that same doctor and reported your results and reaffirmed her already existing belief in this approach?
Penina: So I haven’t actually been back to my doctor yet because, the results the amazing result I’ve been now doing my version of your program since October, so that’s 6 months. But I only started to see results about a month and a half ago was when I kind of like went wooh. Maybe it’s even less than 2 months. So it hasn’t been that long and I’m due for a checkup with her. So yes I’m definitely going to be going back to her very soon and sharing the results with that.
Clint: Okay great. So your next step will be then to start to taper the sulfasalazine if your blood test.
Penina: Nope! I am off the sulfasalazine.
Penina: As soon as I woke up that day and noticed that my pain was gone. I was like okay, I’m going to try to get off of this. So I tapered it off, you know I was taking 4 pills a day. So then I went to 3 pills, and 2 pills, and then I stopped, and the pain did not return. And so now I only take Silcox, 2 or 3 times a week for the wrist pain and the osteo pain that I have. But, otherwise the only pills I’m popping at this point are vitamins.
Clint: Wow, awesome. So do you think that the whole time which is what I tend to think, that you know you had almost everything right and you had your plant based diet going along it was low in fat. You’d eliminated all of the things that we mentioned earlier, but it was just the presence of the gluten containing grains that was holding you back. And then within 2 weeks of stopping those as well, and getting closer to what I refer to as like our baseline portion of our program that’s where it all changed.
Penina: Yes. And you know we can’t be just attributed to the gluten because when I was Keto I was gluten free.
Clint: Yeah exactly.
Penina: So it’s the combination of the plant based, the gluten free, the lowering the acid levels by getting rid of the coffee and the caffeine, and the artificial sweeteners.
Clint: And the meat, we kind a let the meat off the hook too easily by just referring to it as animal protein, it’s far more than that. It’s the huge fat content, it’s the acidification as you talked about. And if we think a little bit more creatively about it, it’s the sort of the the uric acid content in all sorts of weird and wonderful things. But for mine, if you would’ve talk about the proteins vs the fat content which is worse from then all products. It’ll be hard to argue past the fat. I think that, why is the oil the absolute nemesis of rheumatoid, lupus, anything inflammatory arthritis. It’s the fat content, is pure fat, that’s what the oil is biggest problem is. And then as we work backwards from that being the number one enemy, then we hit the high fat foods of dairy and meat. Well before we hit anything that’s as high fat in vegetables.
Penina: In all honesty they I do add some vegetable oils to my food. I’m night completely like fat free like McDougle and stuff like that. But for sure I’ve like lowered my fat intake by 90%.
Clint: Yeah exactly. Which is massive. Right? Lowering it by 90% I mean it is massive. Yeah. So it’s like night and day. So I think these are really good insights for people trying to piece their own puzzle together in their own journey wherever they’re up to. Well that’s fantastic. So you’ve as you said at the top, you’ve now been able to continue to work and enjoy your work, you are a coach. That’s right?
Penina: I’m a (inaudible) speaker and author. And so I had actually, it’s interesting because I’ve done some public speaking, and when I got sick two years ago. I really had to stop going on speaking tours because I didn’t have the stamina to stand on stage for an hour and speak. And I actually had one event about a year ago where they wanted me to do 2 talks back to back out of 15 minute break. And the second talk I almost collapsed on stage because I didn’t have the energy to do that. And I had a book that is in the works in my head that I hadn’t started, I had basically figured I had to put everything on hold because I was just so tired I was expending all my energy simply existing, not even living just existing. And now thank God I’m getting back into it, I’m speaking again, I’m writing, and I’m taking on coaching clients.
Penina: Yeah that’s great. That’s great. You certainly have the personality, the energy, the articulation for it. You know sometimes we get guests, a good example might be Ida who is from the UK, Lovely girl, she’s gone on and created a cookbook, and she gave a live presentation to an audience of sort of likeminded people few months ago. You kind of fit the mold of potentially being able to take your previous career, if we call it previous or existing career. And then you know putting this new passion into one of the slots, and also speaking on this topic and sharing your story and continuing your inspirational work but in it with a different slant with a plant-based plant and encouraging people to help them. One good thing might be to talk to your rheumatologist and say hey, you know check me out, look what’s happened. You and I both share this passion for encouraging people now to have a gluten free plant-based diet. Would you be able to organize a meeting of other patients who would be interested in hearing my talk, and its all free, and I volunteer, and I’ll tell my story just like this, but in a live setting, do you reckon she might agree?
Penina: So, I’m laughing while you’re talking only because my rheumatologist actually died, he had a heart attack. It is horrible. I’m not laughing at the fact that your saying that I go back to him. But I definitely will take it up with my physician. I actually chose not to go see. That was the weird thing it was like Okay so here where I live it takes three months to get an appointment with a rheumatologist. And specialists just take a long time unless your’e in a hospital.
Clint: It’s the same around the world. Here it’s 3 months same in the UK.
Penina: So I saw him and then he passed away, and actually I lost an appointment. And I was searching for a new rheumatologist when I started this program, and I thought let me just wait and see what happens. Because if I can actually solve the problem then I won’t need a rheumatologist. And so that has happened so I haven’t bothered to find myself a new rheumatologist because I feel like I don’t need it. But my bloodwork, my doctor did order bloodwork just 3 weeks ago even though I didn’t see her she went ahead and sent me the order to get the bloodwork done and all of my numbers. My SED rate, my CRP, my ANA’s, everything came out perfect and in fact my cholesterol which was like, I don’t know. Not sky high, but high enough to start worrying is now at 150 which is considered perfect. And so all of my numbers are back in the black as I say there is no big red numbers coming up, and I’m just shocked. So I definitely would like to talk about trying to encourage people. There’s a little bit of a language barrier for me here in Israel because I am not as you can tell by my accent, and probably need of American English speaker and not a native American. And so my Hebrew is really lousy, and so I can’t speak in Hebrew. But there is no reason why I can’t make it on the Internet if nothing else, and share the story because people need to know this. They need to know that they can change their life, and that eating, how we eat really does affect our health.
Penina: I never thought, I mean yes I knew that there was a connection between what I eat and what I weigh. But I never would have thought that a disease could be affected by how I eat, and to see such drastic and dramatic results. It’s like why isn’t every single doctor on the face of the earth teaching people how to eat, to be healthy, instead of just popping pills it’s mind boggling.
Clint: Because they don’t know, they just don’t know. And you’re a rheumatologist who died. You said he had a heart attack.
Clint: Right, which is a 100% preventable condition that is brought upon by eating high fat animal based diet. So that’s not without any disrespect or any kind of lack of sympathy for his family and friends and so forth. But I would say the same thing about someone close to me. It is a fact, it is a preventable disease. And if people are blown away by that comment then they either haven’t listened to much of my work or don’t know much of the work of like Colin Campbell or let’s look let’s talk about Dean Ornish or someone like Cardinal Esselstyn. So folks should go and google that, and learn more because you know your rheumatologist has died from something that if he followed that kind of diet that you’ve been eating in the last five months, he may very well have avoided it. So yeah I mean the world’s crazy, we’ll kill ourselves with we eat. So all we can do is continue to share as much content as we can, and get as many people involved and interested, and try and make it interesting and cool and fun somehow.
Clint: You know, I’m always open to new ideas and ways that we can get messages out there. Because as you say, people need to know.
Penina: I do, because their life depends on it.
Clint: It does. And the shame is that both you and I. And I do believe anyone with an auto immune condition could have avoided it. And it becomes controversial when we talk about JIA cases really young. Like we have a member of our support forum her name is Katie, and she’s doing tremendously well. And she got diagnosed with JAI when she was 1 year old. And if we want, my opinion on this as well it’s still related to the microbiome. The microbiome get shaped by the mums microbiome during the gestation period. If mums drinking lots of dairy in particular, these dairy proteins can get into the bloodstream of both human beings. If babies drinking milk from day one, was not a virginal birth, did not breast fed at all or the child went on antibiotics for a period of time. All these things, and boom microbiomes blown out, you can get an autoimmune disease. So I think autoimmune is avoidable. Stinking hard to treat once you’ve got it, we got to work with it for our lifetimes. But we can work with it and get incredible, equivalent to perfection kind of states compared to like the alternative which is drugs, lots of pain, and so on.
Clint: So you know well done, congratulations.
Penina: Thank you.
Clint: Fantastic and use those skills and drive it. Get an Instagram page whatever. Whatever you think, whatever feels fun. If it’s not fun, you’ll stop doing it. I like doing this, I like talking to people, I like hearing these stories. This for me isn’t work, this is fun. I learn something every single time, it’s enjoyable I get to chat.
Penina: Let me ask you a question. I’m gonna play the interviewer for a second.
Clint: Go for it.
Penina: Why does it feel like now that you have changed the lives of tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of people.
Clint: I haven’t done enough, no. I just haven’t done enough yet. I haven’t put it into an easy enough package for everyone to follow yet, it doesn’t feel enough. There’s so much more work to do. That’s how I feel about it. I feel like it’s awesome but if this was it right now, I’ve failed. Because there are people who still get confused about certain parts of the process. There are others that find that that my online process is too difficult technologically. There are others who are confused because it’s created for adults, and yet we so many JIA cases that are that feel whether or not they should go ahead because they’re children, and I put out sort of protective disclaimers because I don’t want anyone to underfeed their child or force them to do things. .
Clint: I’m caught up with, how can I take this to the greatest possible level? Because until I have, as you said earlier doctors recommending these changes to their patients then I’m not done. I wanna have a book on every rheumatologist shelf in the world that says, this is what you do in parallel to your drug treatment. So as to minimize your drugs through maximum health, and it is rock solid, idiot proof, golden with easy steps to follow, and all of the frequently ask questions and troubleshooting you could ever hope for. And then I’ll feel like, that’s awesome.
Penina: Wow. Well I just want to encourage you because we have a saying that a person who saved one person, has saved a world. And so think of all of the worlds that you have helped save by helping so many thousands of people heal themselves. And I know that this means that I can pick up my grandchildren yes I have grandchildren. I can help people get through trauma, and all of the things that I do. But I thought I had to shelve all because I say your TED talk, and I downloaded your program, and I tried to give it a try. So you’ve made an amazing difference in the world, and I personally am tremendously in debt and grateful for the work that you’re doing. And I pray that you get to do it for a very long time so that in 40, 50 years whatever, you can look and see that our doctors are recommending this protocol for people because it’s a life changer.
Clint: Thank you. Yeah. You know sometimes I don’t know what it is. Sometimes we find it too sensitive or too much vulnerability to really take on board, and accept such really meaningful and lovely comments like that. And I’m very very grateful to hear that, and it does, it does mean a lot. And you know when we get off this call, I’ll go and tell Melissa, I’ll just I said I just spoke with Penina and she’s in Israel. She said some amazing wonderful things, and she had this diagnosis of lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, and she was really struggling on a Keto diet. And I’ll say and now she’s doing fantastic and she was like that’s wonderful you know. And so every single moment of hearing wonderful stories such as yourself means so much, and I just I guess I’m now addicted to it and I want everyone to feel like you. Because I’ve got clients who I speak with every week on the phone, and we work closely together and it’s like a sort of a high level coaching that I do with with a small great at 10 or 12 people. Some of them are very very challenging cases. I want to break through with them as well some of them have an awesome and like they emailed me so I don’t need to speak this week, I’m perfect. Like literally, I’ve had those. And then others it’s a work it’s work. So I’m still, how can I tweak something for them and so forth so you know it’s all the work in progress.
Clint: But again, I guess I’m just skirting around just accepting that beautiful comment that you said and taking it on board and saying thank you very much.
Penina: Definitely, take it.
Clint: Well thank you very much for those nice comments again, and for coming on today. And really this is a fun thing to do, and I love hearing your story. It’s really uplifting and all the best going forward, and hopefully I get to meet you in person one day when I come to Israel and make it 10.0001% vegan.
Penina: I look forward to it. Thank you so much for having me. And it’s been a real pleasure getting to meet you online.